SUBJECT: lo3-85m

Sources:
1) Original Image, NASA GIF
lo3-85m Image

2) Book Image, Scanned, from "The Moon As Viewed By Lunar Orbiter", Pg. 56
Book Image

Rukl Section: 33

From: "Steve Wingate" <steve@anomalous-images.com>
Organization: Anomalous Images
To: lunascan@world.std.com
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:21:14 -0800
Subject: Re: book

On  6 Dec 97 at 1:50, Clare Williams wrote:

> I downloaded this image and have had a good at it in Photoshop and have to
> confess that I can't make out anything anomalous in it. Mind you, the web
> image is of pretty low resolution. Can you point me to the exact region in
> question?

Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I did not see anything very unusual in
this image. I was just giving another reference for the image in the book,
which might be of better quality.

Very few of the NASA-processed images show any anomalies. Most are of too
high contrast to show many details. And that is exactly the way NASA wants
images to be processed when they are to be released to the public, IMO.

This is not the case for images in NASA's huge archives, according to Marc
Whitford and others who have been able to view these images, which are of
very high quality and reveal many anomalies.

Steve



Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:57:17 -0400 (AST)
From: Woody Montier <ab283@virgin.usvi.net>
To: lunascan@world.std.com
Subject: Re: book

I downloaded the LOIII-85M image from:

http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/imgcat/hires/lo3 m85.gif.

Then compared the photo on page 56 in The Moon As Viewed By Lunar Orbiter to the downloaded image.

I can't claim to be any kind of image expert, BUT the two images
are different in the area where the stars and "dome"
appear in the book.  I see no stars at all above the horizon
on the NASA webpage image; I can count 16 stars shining through
or being reflected off what appears to be an elegant, transparent
structure at the top edge of the surface image in the book. This
structure, if it's really there, appears to start at the top
horizon about 10% of the image width from the left margin, and
it rises gently, flatens, and stretches across the top of the
lunar image, fading out in darkness maybe 10% of width from the
right margin.

A lower density of stars is visible in the blackness above the
"dome" in the book image.  Under no stars, the "dome" area appears
to be solid rock (although with a lack of any structural detail)
in NASA's current gif.  So the dome is a half-tone illusion,
stars and all; or the gif has been edited to make the dome
look like rock. Looks to me like the top one-sixth or so of
the gif is much lighter than the rest of the image.  This is
not the case in the book.

I really appreciate finding out that a gif of this image is
available.  Don't know which interpretation is correct.

Regards,
Woody Montier



From: marsbase@earthlink.net
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:31:36 +0100
To: lunascan@world.std.com
Subject: Ref.: Moon/LOM

Hi Fran, List members---  May have been less than
objective in   descriptions of LOM frame  III85M. While a distinct tower
not vis., look to left of the North arrow at top and you'll see two
bright circular marks. Extending down from them is a structure, which is
the "Tower" enhanced-imaged by RCH and group.

   As for the "murky mass",  I still stand by my feeling
this c/be a dome. If unlit by sunlight, w/not be visable.

    The double craters, at least in _this_ frame are not
result of  a double-image. Rest of the image is quite clear.  I haven't
had any luck w/online LOM pix.

....... alan



From: Bill63 <Bill63@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:53:43 EST
Subject: Re:  Ref.: Moon/LOM

In a message dated 12/16/97 11:47:32 AM, marsbase@earthlink.net wrote:

<<Hi Fran, List members---  May have been less than
objective in   descriptions of LOM frame  III85M. While a distinct tower
not vis., look to left of the North arrow at top and you'll see two>>

Hi all,

I have the 8"X10" negatives of LOIII-85H1, 2, and 3.  It's my impression that
the double craters are caused by something like motion blur.  Even though the
image looks pretty clear, the smallest resolvable objects are either lines or
doubled craters all aligned in the same direction on all three negatives.  It
is argued that there couldn't be motion blur because the larger craters look
like they are in good focus.  I contend that with each larger crater, the blur
effect is reduced.

What we start out with is a crater almost too small to be resolved. The blur
effect causes that crater to look like a small line.  The next few crater
sizes above the "blur line craters" are the ones that have the doubled effect.
The next size up shows an elongated crater.  Another size up shows a crater
that looks old with rounded walls.  The biggest craters don't show any effect
because the motion of the camera was too little to have caused an effect.

Since LOIII-85M was taken at the same time as 85H1, 2, and 3, I'm sure that
the same effect goes across the boards.

Bill kohler



From: LanFleming@aol.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:19:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re:  Re:  Ref.: Moon/LOM

Bill Kohler wrote: <<Since LOIII-85M was taken at the same time as 85H1, 2,
and 3, I'm sure that the same effect goes across the boards.>>

I have the three 85H images, too, BIll, and I agree with you that motion blur
is the likely explanation for the double craters on those images, but it
wouldn't necessarily account for a similar effect in the medium resolution
image, even though they were taken simultaneously. The lunar surface would
move the same amount during the time the medium and high resolution images
were taken, but the extent of blurring would be much less noticeable on the
medium resolution image because the resolution was over 7 times less than for
the high resolution camera. The length of the same blurred region on the
medium res image would be less than 1/7 the length the high-res photo.

I don't have 85M, so I don't know what features are being referred to there.
Was there a URL I missed?

Lan



From: Bill63 <Bill63@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 03:30:44 EST
Subject: Re:  Re:  Re:  Ref.: Moon/LOM

In a message dated 12/16/97 5:35:23 PM, LanFleming@AOL.COM wrote:

<< I don't have 85M, so I don't know what features are being referred to
there.
Was there a URL I missed? >>

I don't think you missed anything, Lan.  Alan was talking about double craters
in 85M, I believe.  Since the 85H frames were taken at the same time as 85M, I
thought that the same mechanism that I believe caused the doubling in 85H
could have caused the doubling in 85M that Alan is referring to.  But as you
pint out, the blur effect for 85M would be about 1/7 that of the 85H frames.
Makes sense to me.

BTW, does anyone have an image of LOIII-85M that we can look at?

Bill



From: Bill63 <Bill63@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:37:02 EST
Subject: Re:  LO III 85M as att.

In a message dated 12/18/97 9:43:23 AM, marsbase@earthlink.net wrote:

<<Hi--  Fran, Bill, Lan, list members.
Attached is  a JPG (116k) of LOM frame LO III 85M.  This is _only_  a
scan from the Lunar Orbiter book, _not_ from a neg.,  but is posted as a
reference.
I do have a larger (264K) scan if anyone wants that large a file.
  When blown up, even this (double cratered)  image seems quite clear.
Any comments welcome.

   ......alan>>

Thank you, Alan.  If it's not too much trouble, I would like to see the 264K
scan.

Thanks again,

Bill



From: Bill63 <Bill63@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 14:12:36 EST
Subject: Re:  Re:  Larger LO III_85M

In a message dated 12/20/97 1:03:21 PM, slk@evansville.net wrote:

<<On Sat, 20 Dec 1997, Bill63 <Bill63@aol.com> wrote:

>In a message dated 12/19/97 10:45:56 AM, marsbase@earthlink.net wrote:
>
><<Hi, all  --  Bill63@aol req'd larger (264k) lunar image.
>Well, am happy to reply...as attached. I hope its not
>disappointing.  This is original scan via Adobe Photo
>Deluxe (_not_ PhotoShop) w/the shorter file simply
>a reduction in photo size.
>>>
>
>Thanks for the larger image, Alan.  Your scanner does a good job.  So far,
>with a quick glance, the thing that sticks out the most is the translucent
>streak that runs along the horizon and covers an area below and above the
>horizon.  This feature fits in with Hoagland's Lunar dome theory.  This
>feature starts about a fifth of the way in from the left of the image, and
>curves slightly up to the far fight of the image.  I haven't yet seen the
>types of double craters that are visible in the Hi-res images.
>
>Thanks again,
>
>Bill

Hi,

Bill, can you post the image on your site for us to look at, possibly link to?

Fran
>>

Fran,

Mike Lomax has lready given us a site for LOIII-85M at:

http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/imgcat/hires/lo3_m85.gif

Alan's scan in some was is nicer, but it did introduce the translucent look at
the limb.  What looks like a haziness above the lunar horizon in Alan's scan
is actually part of the lunar horizon, as shown in lo3_m85.gif.

Bill



From: Bill63 <Bill63@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 14:12:36 EST
Subject: Re:  Re:  Larger LO III_85M

In a message dated 12/20/97 1:03:21 PM, slk@evansville.net wrote:

<<On Sat, 20 Dec 1997, Bill63 <Bill63@aol.com> wrote:

>In a message dated 12/19/97 10:45:56 AM, marsbase@earthlink.net wrote:
>
><<Hi, all  --  Bill63@aol req'd larger (264k) lunar image.
>Well, am happy to reply...as attached. I hope its not
>disappointing.  This is original scan via Adobe Photo
>Deluxe (_not_ PhotoShop) w/the shorter file simply
>a reduction in photo size.
>>>
>
>Thanks for the larger image, Alan.  Your scanner does a good job.  So far,
>with a quick glance, the thing that sticks out the most is the translucent
>streak that runs along the horizon and covers an area below and above the
>horizon.  This feature fits in with Hoagland's Lunar dome theory.  This
>feature starts about a fifth of the way in from the left of the image, and
>curves slightly up to the far fight of the image.  I haven't yet seen the
>types of double craters that are visible in the Hi-res images.
>
>Thanks again,
>
>Bill

Hi,

Bill, can you post the image on your site for us to look at, possibly link to?

Fran
>>



Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 23:50:23 +0100
From: Don Ledger <dledger@istar.ca>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; U; 68K)
To: lunascan@world.std.com
Subject: Re: Larger LO III_85M
Sender: lunascan-approval@world.std.com
Reply-To: lunascan@world.std.com

Hi Fran,

I normally watch and take heed, being a rank amateur in this field
[actually less qualified than that], but on this scan that you or
whoever produced at:

http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/imgcat/hires/lo3_m85.gif

I could see no hint of a dome, but someting else just leaped right out
at me. The problem is, how do I point it out.  I see an angled road or
ramp running from 1 o'clock to 7 o'clock just below the horizon and
about 65 to 70 percent from the left of the scan. It is in perspective
and would be many miles long with a hill right in the center of it. On
the end at the one o'clock position there is an inverted "L" which wraps
around the end of the "road". The image is below the horizon and just
begins below the apparent smooth area in a bit of a rough area.

It is really quite startling how well defined this is. Has anyone else
noticed it?

Don Ledger



Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:54:57 -0400 (AST)
From: Woody Montier <ab283@virgin.usvi.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Larger LO III_85M

To me there seem to be two different LO3_M85's - one looks like
more rugged rocks on the top horizon, and one looks like a
transparent structure is on the horizon.  If somebody can
explain why the stars have disappeared in the solid rock
version, I'll except that explanation.  But I can't find
even a bright speck where the stars appear to be in the
version published in the book.



Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:05:59 +0100
From: Don Ledger <dledger@istar.ca>
Subject: Re: Larger LO III_85M
Reply-To: lunascan@world.std.com

Fran and Bill,

Either one of you. I posted a request for information or perhaps
clarification a few days ago about something else I spotted on
lo3-m85.gif, but I never got an answer. You should know by now Fran,
that I cannot be blown off that easy:-)
Seriously. Though I have not been able to spot the translucent image
y'all seem to be seeing, I see something there that intrigues me. It
remind>


Transfer interrupted!

oment suggesting that it is].
If I was on a right base, turning final for a runway [and I have done
that  many times], this is what I would see.
Now just to the right of center of the picture and about 3/4 of an inch
below the horizon, there is a large mound with its 4 and 5 o'clock area
bitten into by a crater.The peak of the mound[> 

Transfer interrupted!

rge black shadow at 180 degrees. Just to the right of this is
another smaller shadow. In front of that is what appers to be the SHORT
end of a wide road. Follow back past the little shadow toward the top of
the image, through the mound and you see what appears to be two faint
parallel lines like a continuation of this "road" running at a rough
angle of 210-30 degrees. At the top end right on the edge of the smooth
area is a an inverted "L" shape wrapping around the end of my "road".
These look like straight lines to me.

I have no idea what scale we are dealing with here but if this is a
cleared area, it must be emmence. I'm assuming that on the moon as on
earth, that straight lines do not occur naturally.
Make an old man happy with at least a look. Then tell me I'm crazy.

Don Ledger



From: Bill63 <Bill63@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:57:42 EST
Subject: Re:  Re: Larger LO III_85M

In a message dated 12/23/97 12:18:59 PM, slk@evansville.net wrote:

<<You guys have got me chompin' at the bit, but I still don't have the image.
Where can I get it? For some reason I do not have that gif. So please, make
Santa bring me a 'gif or I'll go blind! (One of youse guys send it ta me
ASAP).

Fran
>>

Hi Fran,

We have two images from the same LO frame that we are looking at.  One image
is at a NASA site that Mike Lomax gave us the url for.  It is at:

     http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/imgcat/hires/lo3_m85.gif

The other image was scanned from a book by list member Alan.  I've attached
this image.

Bill

Attachment Converted: "c:\0\LOIII85m.jpg"



From: Bill63 <Bill63@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:47:30 EST
Subject: Re:  Re: Larger LO III_85M

In a message dated 12/23/97 10:05:46 AM, dledger@istar.ca wrote:

<<Either one of you. I posted a request for information or perhaps
clarification a few days ago about something else I spotted on
lo3-m85.gif, but I never got an answer. You should know by now Fran,
that I cannot be blown off that easy:-) >>

Hi Don,

Definitely not trying to blow you off.  Just been very busy with only a few
minutes to check my mail each day.  I'll take a closer look at these images in
a few days and get back to you on this.  Meanwhile, I wonder if Mike Lomax,
Jon Floyd, and Lan Fleming have anything to say about the two LOIII-85M
images.

Bill Kohler



Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 18:05:30 -0400 (AST)
From: Woody Montier <ab283@virgin.usvi.net>
To: lunascan@world.std.com
Subject: Re: Re: Larger LO III_85M

Hello Fran,

Did you just get a copy of The Moon As Viewed By Lunar Orbiter?
If so, L03_M85 is on page 56.  The other version can be found
at http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/imgcat/hires/lo3 m85.gif
I think this answers your question.  Given a week or two, I
could get a high resolution scan of the book photo, but I thought
someone had already done that.  Maybe I'm confused about this, but
I believe I read something on this newslist a week or so ago.
Regards,
Woody
 

On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, slk wrote:

> At 07:54 PM 12/22/97 -0400, Woody Montier <ab283@virgin.usvi.net> wrote:
>
> >To me there seem to be two different LO3_M85's - one looks like
> >more rugged rocks on the top horizon, and one looks like a
> >transparent structure is on the horizon.  If somebody can
> >explain why the stars have disappeared in the solid rock
> >version, I'll except that explanation.  But I can't find
> >even a bright speck where the stars appear to be in the
> >version published in the book.
>
> Hi Woody & List Members,
>
> First of all, LO3_M85 is not in my files at all. Is this not a readily
> available frame? Where can we get it?
>
> Fran



Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 18:20:48 -0400 (AST)
From: Woody Montier <ab283@virgin.usvi.net>
To: lunascan@world.std.com
Subject: Re: Larger LO III_85M

I can't find find the feature you're describing, but I
would not be shocked if it is in this photograph.
Hoagland published an enlargement from this photo in
the Summer 95 Martiam Horizons that shoes a quarter mile
long U shaped pipe that cannot be anything other than
artificial (unless someone hoaxed the photo).
Regards,
Woody

On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, Don Ledger wrote:

> Bill63 wrote:
> > > In a message dated 12/20/97 1:03:21 PM, slk@evansville.net wrote:
> >
> > <<On Sat, 20 Dec 1997, Bill63 <Bill63@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > >In a message dated 12/19/97 10:45:56 AM, marsbase@earthlink.net wrote:
> > >
> > ><<Hi, all  --  Bill63@aol req'd larger (264k) lunar image.
> > >Well, am happy to reply...as attached. I hope its not
> > >disappointing.  This is original scan via Adobe Photo
> > >Deluxe (_not_ PhotoShop) w/the shorter file simply
> > >a reduction in photo size.
> > >>>
> > >
> > >Thanks for the larger image, Alan.  Your scanner does a good job.  So far,
> > >with a quick glance, the thing that sticks out the most is the translucent
> > >streak that runs along the horizon and covers an area below and above the
> > >horizon.  This feature fits in with Hoagland's Lunar dome theory.  This
> > >feature starts about a fifth of the way in from the left of the image, and
> > >curves slightly up to the far fight of the image.  I haven't yet seen the
> > >types of double craters that are visible in the Hi-res images.
> > >
> > >Thanks again,
> > >
> > >Bill
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Bill, can you post the image on your site for us to look at, possibly link to?
> >
> > Fran
> > >>
> >
> > Fran,
> snipped
> > Bill
>
> Fran and Bill,
>
> Either one of you. I posted a request for information or perhaps
> clarification a few days ago about something else I spotted on
> lo3-m85.gif, but I never got an answer. You should know by now Fran,
> that I cannot be blown off that easy:-)
> Seriously. Though I have not been able to spot the translucent image
> y'all seem to be seeing, I see something there that intrigues me. It
> reminds me of a runway [and I'm not for a moment suggesting that it is].
> If I was on a right base, turning final for a runway [and I have done
> that  many times], this is what I would see.
> Now just to the right of center of the picture and about 3/4 of an inch
> below the horizon, there is a large mound with its 4 and 5 o'clock area
> bitten into by a crater.The peak of the mound[more likely a mountain]
> has a large black shadow at 180 degrees. Just to the right of this is
> another smaller shadow. In front of that is what appers to be the SHORT
> end of a wide road. Follow back past the little shadow toward the top of
> the image, through the mound and you see what appears to be two faint
> parallel lines like a continuation of this "road" running at a rough
> angle of 210-30 degrees. At the top end right on the edge of the smooth
> area is a an inverted "L" shape wrapping around the end of my "road".
> These look like straight lines to me.
>
> I have no idea what scale we are dealing with here but if this is a
> cleared area, it must be emmence. I'm assuming that on the moon as on
> earth, that straight lines do not occur naturally.
> Make an old man happy with at least a look. Then tell me I'm crazy.
>
> Don Ledger



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